Apologies and Reflections
I need to begin with an apology for the long time between blogs. A number of issues arose, including trips, an accreditation visit and the opening of a new school year at Loma Linda University. I think of my readers on a daily basis and appreciate every comment that has come in, but urgencies have blocked the way for a while.
The quality and vigor of the comments since my last blog have been excellent and there are many issues I would like to address. I will take them somewhat in the order that they were posted.
R. J. Humpal wrote in response to the blog on the first part of Revelation 17: "I am amazed at the opinions of all of the people I meet who believe the Woman of Revelation 12 must be the "Church". Since when was the church ever in heaven? And as for the church giving birth to Jesus Christ? Where do people come up with this news? But what puzzles me the most is how can a church have offspring? Isn’t the church always the church?"
With regard to the church in heaven, New Testament scholars generally agree that the NT age did not replace the Old, rather it "overlapped" it, with the new and the old going on side by side until the Second Coming of Jesus. I have written on this at some length in What the Bible Says About the End-Time. I will post some of that on the web site soon. That means NT writers often portray believers as if they were already in heaven. Eph 2:6 and Col. 3:1-3 are examples. Revelation scholars often include Rev 14:1-5 as a further example, although the spiritual location is less clear there. Now if past posts are to be believed, Humpal might respond that Paul was a tool of Satan and is not to be believed. In which case the vast majority of Christians are the ones who should be "amazed." (smile) But more on that another time.
With regard to the church giving birth to Christ (Rev 12:5), the symbolism may seem weird, but that is what apocalyptic is all about. There are many first century examples of apocalyptic outside Scripture and it gets even wilder than Revelation. God meets people where they are, using their language and imagery. I am comfortable with the response of Kevin James to this on July 31. As to the church having offspring, while the "church" can be described as a single entity throughout time, it also has various manifestations at different times. Note Revelation 7, where it is 144,000 from the twelve tribes and also a great multitude from every nation. I believe the evidence is overwhelming that these are two different ways of describing essentially the same thing, perhaps at different times and places.
Credit where credit is due. Humpal notes the challenging identity of the Great City in Revelation (11:8; 14:8; 17:18; 18:10). It sounds like Jerusalem in 11:8, but is clearly identified with Babylon in 14:8 and 18:10. It may be helpful to note that Jesus warns his disciples ("when you [plural] see") to "come out of" Jerusalem before the Romans destroy it (Matt. 24:15-20; Mark 13:14-19; Luke 21:20-24). In Revelation, on the other hand, God’s people are called to "come out of" Babylon in the last days (Rev 18:4). So a strong analogy is drawn between the fate of Jerusalem in AD 70 and the fate of Babylon at the end of the world. Babylon is clearly a hostile world power that has an identity as a follower of God (note the similarity between Babylon’s clothing and that of the OT High Priest).
To the other respondents, don’t worry, your day is coming (God willing). (smile) I want to treat ideas and opinions carefully and with respect and also do a little research and checking as I have time. I could talk off the top of my head easily (known to do that all the time), but I think this venue calls for more carefulness, hence my slow responses at times. Thanks for checking in.
Again, welcome back Jon, I almost forgot about your blog but am glad you are 'back in the saddle again'. Thanks for taking a crack at answering or replying to some of my comments. With what is going on right now in this world, many of the questions we have in regards to end time events will soon be answered.
If what God told Daniel in Dan. 12:10 is true, then I (for myself) can't put much weight upon what NT scholars believe because their belief(s) are presumed to come from the words of those who are now dead and could not have known the truth about end time prophecies. As for Revelation being wild with apocalyptic symbols, I suppose this would be true IF Revelation is not truthfully understood. But the words found in Rev. 1:1-3 are very clear to me that the "Bond Servants" that do read and understand will be blessed.
It was not clear to me in regards to the 144,000 and the great multitude found in Rev. 7, whether or not you believe these two groups are actually only one, or not. If they are only one, why are the 144k sealed prior to the time of trouble and the multitude from all nations after the time of trouble? And are you saying that Daniel 9:24's prophecy giving Israel/Jews a limit to make an end of sin doesn't put a limit or condition upon them--and that they were the ones that gave birth to Jesus?
I will not get into Paul's writings here but it sure would be nice to find someone who could try to answer my questions without useing his words for a change. (smile) As for the majority being amazed, perhaps some day we will find out. Now may not be the right time. (Matt. 24:45)
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I believe the woman of Rev 12 and 17 are symbolic of one and the same entity at different stages of her development. I wecome you to join a group of lay Bible students in an online webinar every Friday evening at 7:00 P.M. (EST). This Friday we will discuss the woman of Revelation 17 in the context of the woman of Revelation 12. We believe the Jewish church gave birth to Christ or Christianity and subsequently fled into the wilderness. To join, we need you to send your email address to connect7242@yahoocom. The session is open to invitees only. Hope you will join us.
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Thank you for your thoughtful comments, Jon. I think we all realize you have a more than busy schedule these days, and whenever you can get to the comments we are willing to wait for.
There are just to many parralles linking the women of Rev 12 and 17 to overlook and ignore. Personally I think it tells the story of eventual massive apostacy in the Christian Church. Paul suggests this several times in his writings, and Rev 17 is the manifestation of what the Early Church was taught all along.
The "weirdness" of symbology in Revelation has to be taken carefully, indeed, or one can easily lose their way in understanding it. But if one does not allow themselves to become so fixiated upon the weirdness they can see a "bigger" picture contained within the unnatural representations of events and truths.
Looking forward to reading the future responses to the other thoughtful posts.
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We believe too there are "too many parallels linking the women of Rev 12 and 17 to overlook and ignore." Therefore, it can be shown scripturally and historically that the woman of Rev. 12 and the woman of Rev. 17 represent the same entity but at different stages of her development. Join us, a group of lay Bible students, for our Friday Evening Bible Study webinar held online at 7:00 P.M. EST. If you are interested, send your email address to me at connect7242@yahoocom. The webinar is for invitees only. Hope you will join us.
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